Regarding Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch's Guidelines in Call The Police
The Awareness Center's Daily Newsletter - June 16, 2008
By Vicki Polin
Following Vicki Polin's original public statement regarding Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch's Guidelines for calling the police is a statement written by Rabbi Dr. Daniel Eidensohn on his blog
called Daas Torah's blog. Rabbi Sternbuch is the Chief Rabbi of the Orthodox Rabbinical
Courts in Har Nof, Jerusalem, Israel and is telling his community members that they MUST get permission from a rabbi prior to contacting child protective services or any form of law enforcement ins suspected cases of child abuse or neglect.
Regarding Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch's Guidelines for Calling the Police
© (2008) Vicki Polin - CEO, The Awareness Center, Inc.
It saddens me a great deal to read the posting on Daas Torah's blog. With all the information and education that is available to our rabbonim it appears that they are still refusing to learn from their past mistakes. I'll admit that I have never heard of Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch until I received an e-mail with the link to this blog. (Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch, shlita, senior member of the Jerusalem Beit Din Tzedek (Jewish Religious Court)
My hope by providing the following information will help to prevent one more child from being harmed and that those who are already victims of sex crimes, the will be able to receive the proper help.
It's obvious that Rabbi Sternbuch is lacking basic knowledge about sex offenders and the needs of those who have been sexually violated as children. The most important message that needs to get out is that each of us should consider ourselves mandated reporters. This basically means if you SUSPECT a child is in danger you have to call your local hotline, rape crisis center or police. You don't go to a rabbi to get permission or have them make the call. The key word here is "SUSPECT." We need to leave all the investigating and fact finding/gathering to law enforcement and not our rabbonim.
Most
children don't come out and say "I'm being raped at home, school, camp
and or in shul." If we suspect a child is being harmed or at risk of
harm it's vitally important that we don't ask the child leading
questions. It's best to have a highly trained mental health professional
and or child protection worker who works with law enforcement to talk
to the child to get information.
How many times do I have to remind everyone that our rabbis DO NOT have specialized training in collecting forensic evidence nor do they have the education, training or skills to do a victim sensitive interview. Going to a rav "with concerns" just doesn't work. It's much better for the individual who suspects a child is at risk of harm to call their local child abuse hotlines directly.
The concern Rabbi Sternbuch has regarding child protection workers, rape victim advocates and the police not being "sensitive to the needs and nature of the charedi community" is not true in most cases. Most professionals want to do what they can to help and understand the cultural differences. I'm sure that Rabbi Sternbuch knows this and I'm afraid to say I think that he is trying to sell a bag of goods, with his fear tactics of saying the police will not work with or understand the cultural differences.
The Awareness Center's Daily Newsletter - June 16, 2008
By Vicki Polin
Also see:
- The Case of the Unnamed Rapist of Har Nof (Jerusalem, Israel)
 |
| Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch |
Following
Daniel Eidensohn's comment made on June 16, 2008, you will
find two responses from Vicki Polin, who is the founder and director of
The Awareness Center, along with a copy of the new psak created by
Sternbuch.
Daniel Eidensohn is a psychotherapist in private practice since 1970. According to Dr. Eidesohn's linkedin account, he states he specializes in short term solution oriented therapy for resolution of religious conflicts which are misunderstood as being psychological problems. Eidensohn received his masters degree from Brooklyn, College, his doctorate from Adelphi University and his rabbinic education from Shor Yoshuv.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita - Guidelines for Calling the Police
Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity - June 8, 2008
There
is a widespread impression that the police and the chareidi world have
an inherently antagonistic relationship. There is also a widespread
perception that the chareidi world is more concerned with covering up
crimes such as child or wife abuse and that pedophiles are given free
run. In other words there is a perception that the chareidi community is
more worried by adverse publicity then it is about the welfare of the
individual.
This Shabbos I had an intensive discussion with Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita about these issues.
1) Child Molesters
He stated without hesitation and said that I can quote him - that if one knows that children are being molested that one should call the police. He noted that there is an important distinction to keep in mind. One calls the police when it is clear that someone is still in danger. Thus one does not automatically call the police concerning an event that took place once and is not going to be repeated. In such a case one should first consult with a rav. When I mentioned that many rabbis apparently felt differently “ he dismissed such a view as being wrong. He noted also that it is important for the community rabbis to have a good working relationship with the police. That means that the police need to be sensitive to the needs and nature of the chareidi community and the community needs to be understanding of the police. He said that there is such a relationship with many police forces.
The rule is summarized simply “ if one knows that someone is being physically abused or will be abused than it is required to call the police after consulting a rabbi who agrees he is a future danger as is common in such cases.
2) Vigilante actions
I mentioned the issue of vigilante actions in the chareidi community and whether they are to be praised or condemned. He noted that there are unfortunately disturbed and misguided individuals in the chareidi community “ as there are in other communities. The general rule is not to make a public protest when the problem is rare and insignificant. He said that it only encourages these individuals when their activities are publicized. However if they progress beyond this stage then it is important to take action. He mentioned the Bedatz dealt last year with vigilantes who burned down a clothing store in Geula. I mentioned the recent incident in Beitar. He said he condemned such behavior. If it is clearly not a rare act of a disturbed person then it needs to be dealt with.
[This is also related to the recent outbreak of burglaries in Har Nof where Rav Sternbuch lives. The unanimous ruling of the rabbonim of Har Nof is that one can call the police on Shabbos if one witnesses a break-in as there is also life danger involved. As is explained in Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchosa (41:25-29) “ this is because the possible danger associated with these break-ins. See also Aruch HaShulchan (C.M. 388:7). Tzitz Eliezer (19:52) also permitted calling the police in the case of teacher molesting his students. He based his psak on the Aruch HaShulchan.]
__________________________________________________________________________________
Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita - Guidelines for Calling the Police
Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity - June 8, 2008
 |
| Daniel Eidensohn, Blogger |
This Shabbos I had an intensive discussion with Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita about these issues.
1) Child Molesters
He stated without hesitation and said that I can quote him - that if one knows that children are being molested that one should call the police. He noted that there is an important distinction to keep in mind. One calls the police when it is clear that someone is still in danger. Thus one does not automatically call the police concerning an event that took place once and is not going to be repeated. In such a case one should first consult with a rav. When I mentioned that many rabbis apparently felt differently “ he dismissed such a view as being wrong. He noted also that it is important for the community rabbis to have a good working relationship with the police. That means that the police need to be sensitive to the needs and nature of the chareidi community and the community needs to be understanding of the police. He said that there is such a relationship with many police forces.
The rule is summarized simply “ if one knows that someone is being physically abused or will be abused than it is required to call the police after consulting a rabbi who agrees he is a future danger as is common in such cases.
2) Vigilante actions
I mentioned the issue of vigilante actions in the chareidi community and whether they are to be praised or condemned. He noted that there are unfortunately disturbed and misguided individuals in the chareidi community “ as there are in other communities. The general rule is not to make a public protest when the problem is rare and insignificant. He said that it only encourages these individuals when their activities are publicized. However if they progress beyond this stage then it is important to take action. He mentioned the Bedatz dealt last year with vigilantes who burned down a clothing store in Geula. I mentioned the recent incident in Beitar. He said he condemned such behavior. If it is clearly not a rare act of a disturbed person then it needs to be dealt with.
[This is also related to the recent outbreak of burglaries in Har Nof where Rav Sternbuch lives. The unanimous ruling of the rabbonim of Har Nof is that one can call the police on Shabbos if one witnesses a break-in as there is also life danger involved. As is explained in Shmiras Shabbos K'hilchosa (41:25-29) “ this is because the possible danger associated with these break-ins. See also Aruch HaShulchan (C.M. 388:7). Tzitz Eliezer (19:52) also permitted calling the police in the case of teacher molesting his students. He based his psak on the Aruch HaShulchan.]
__________________________________________________________________________________
Regarding Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch's Guidelines for Calling the Police
© (2008) Vicki Polin - CEO, The Awareness Center, Inc.
 |
| Vicki Polin, MA, LCPC, NCC, |
It saddens me a great deal to read the posting on Daas Torah's blog. With all the information and education that is available to our rabbonim it appears that they are still refusing to learn from their past mistakes. I'll admit that I have never heard of Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch until I received an e-mail with the link to this blog. (Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch, shlita, senior member of the Jerusalem Beit Din Tzedek (Jewish Religious Court)
My hope by providing the following information will help to prevent one more child from being harmed and that those who are already victims of sex crimes, the will be able to receive the proper help.
It's obvious that Rabbi Sternbuch is lacking basic knowledge about sex offenders and the needs of those who have been sexually violated as children. The most important message that needs to get out is that each of us should consider ourselves mandated reporters. This basically means if you SUSPECT a child is in danger you have to call your local hotline, rape crisis center or police. You don't go to a rabbi to get permission or have them make the call. The key word here is "SUSPECT." We need to leave all the investigating and fact finding/gathering to law enforcement and not our rabbonim.
 |
| Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch |
How many times do I have to remind everyone that our rabbis DO NOT have specialized training in collecting forensic evidence nor do they have the education, training or skills to do a victim sensitive interview. Going to a rav "with concerns" just doesn't work. It's much better for the individual who suspects a child is at risk of harm to call their local child abuse hotlines directly.
The concern Rabbi Sternbuch has regarding child protection workers, rape victim advocates and the police not being "sensitive to the needs and nature of the charedi community" is not true in most cases. Most professionals want to do what they can to help and understand the cultural differences. I'm sure that Rabbi Sternbuch knows this and I'm afraid to say I think that he is trying to sell a bag of goods, with his fear tactics of saying the police will not work with or understand the cultural differences.
If you live in Israel and suspect a child is being abused call:
Israel Association for Child Protection (ELI)
English: http://www.eliusa.org/home.htm
Hebrew: http://www.eli.org.il/Content/index.asp
In the US call:
ChildHelp USA
1-800-4-A-CHILD
http://www.childhelp.org/get_help/local-phone-numbers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The insensitive condescension of the secular towards the Orthodox community
The insensitive condescension of the secular towards the Orthodox community
By Daniel Eidensohn
Daas Torah Blog - June 16, 2008
|
| Daniel Eidensohn, Blogger |
One
of the consequences of my posting Rav Sternbuch’s psak regarding
calling the police for child molesters is the manifestation of the
significant gap between those who observe halacha and those who accept
secular ideas and values as the objective standard of reality. I had
noted that one of the reasons for consulting with a rav is the fact that
the police and mental health workers are not always sensitive to
religious values and not always sensitive to the welfare of the child.
There is often a condescending attitude towards the “primitive” or
“unenlightened” Orthodox which is the result of cultural bias – not
scientific facts.
An
example of the concern that religious Jews have about the secular
system is clearly manifest in the following letter I received. I am
using Vicki Polin’s letter as an example because there is no question
that she is sincere and dedicated in helping people. But it is also
clear she has no clue about halacha and religious
sensibilities. She read my first posting, and assumed that Rav
Sternbuch – who she admits she never heard of before – must be ignorant.
And she was so sure – without checking the facts – that she writes a
strong letter of condemnation to be posted on my blog. She drew the
erroneous conclusion that his concern is shielding the molester from the
police – when in fact the opposite is true. She concludes with “Most
professionals want to do what they can to help and understand the
cultural differences. I'm sure that Rabbi Sternbuch knows this and I'm
afraid to say I think that he is trying to sell a bag of goods, with his
fear tactics of saying the police will not work with or understand the
cultural differences.”
A
rather condescending comment which those in the religious community
find offensive and as justification for their concerns with the insensitivities towards religious values.
Here are four examples of many from my personal experience.
1) I once consulted with a secular psychologist
regarding a yeshiva bachur who had problems of low self-esteem. The
psychologist responded that the problem was the result of the fact that
the 17 year old bachur did not have a girl friend for sexual relations. When I objected that this was unacceptable, he replied that this was the only possible treatment for the problem!
2)
I know a frum family which was falsely accused of child abuse. The
police department was called in and they arrived in force - insisting on
being allowed into the house without warrant – or the parents would be
taken to jail. They then demanded that all the children be separated
from their parents and interrogated. It was only due to the fact that
one of the neighbors was a lawyer that the crude pressure tactics were
called off and the lawyer said this is not unusual. Even if the
accusations were true, there was no justification
for the gross insensitivity displayed. Even if we grant that these
mental health professions really want to help – it doesn’t ensure that
they act appropriately.
3) One of the social workers who was interrogating the children asked a ten year old girl how many children there were in the family. When she was told that there were nine children, this frum girl was asked how many men her mother had lived with.
4) I once was dealing with a yeshiva bachur who was placed in a mental hospital after attempting suicide. I was asked to give background information to the social worker at the hospital. When I asked her not
to lock the door of her office because it was against Jewish law, she
asked me with a smirk, whether I was afraid she would attack me.
==========================================================================
Vicki Polin's first response to Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn
|
| Vicki Polin, MA, LCPC, NCC, |
It
saddens me a great deal to read this posting. With all the information
and education that is available to our rabbonim it appears that they are
still refusing to learn from their past mistakes. I'll admit that I
have never heard of Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch until I received an e-mail
with the link to this blog.
My hope by providing the following information will help to prevent one more child from being harmed and that those who are already victims of sex crimes, the will be able to receive the proper help.
It's obvious that Rabbi Sternbuch is lacking basic knowledge about sex offenders and the needs of those who have been sexually violated as children. The most important message that needs to get out is that each of us should consider ourselves mandated reporters. This basically means if you SUSPECT a child is in danger you have to call your local hotline, rape crisis center or police. You don't go to a rabbi to get permission or have them make the call. The key word here is "SUSPECT." We need to leave all the investigating and fact finding/gathering to law enforcement and not our rabbonim.
Most children don't come out and say "I'm being raped at home, school, camp and or in shul." If we suspect a child is being harmed or at risk of harm it's vitally important that we don't ask the child leading questions. It's best to have a highly trained mental health professional and or child protection worker who works with law enforcement to talk to the child to get information.
How many times do I have to remind everyone that our rabbis DO NOT have specialized training in collecting forensic evidence nor do they have the education, training or skills to do a victim sensitive interview. Going to a rav "with concerns" just doesn't work. It's much better for the individual who suspects a child is at risk of harm to call their local child abuse hotlines directly.
The concern Rabbi Sternbuch has regarding child protection workers, rape victim advocates and the police not being "sensitive to the needs and nature of the charedi community" is not true in most cases. Most professionals want to do what they can to help and understand the cultural differences. I'm sure that Rabbi Sternbuch knows this and I'm afraid to say I think that he is trying to sell a bag of goods, with his fear tactics of saying the police will not work with or understand the cultural differences.
==========================================================================
Daniel,
|
| Vicki Polin, MA, LCPC, NCC, |
It saddens me that you would write such a strong letter of condemnation
to my statements posted on your blog. I wanted to make sure that you are
aware that I have been living within the eruv of various orthodox
communities for just under 10 years. Though I am no longer looking to
become observant, I am very familiar with many of the cultural issues
pertaining to sex crimes. When I've had questions I have always sought
out one of my halachic advisors.
I'm sorry that your experience with the secular world has been to be looked down at. I have never thought of the Torah observant community as being "Primitive" or "unenlightened." I have used the terms "insulated " and "unaware," yet never "primitive" or unenlightened." I have often asked myself, how can someone have information or reach a level of awareness if they have not been education on various issues?
It was until around 1999 - 2001, that sexual abuse began to be discussed in orthodox circles. It wasn't until the case of rabbi Baruch Lanner hit the news media, did the religious world start paying attention.
In 1999 I started transforming my private practice web page into what is know The Awareness Center's site. In 2001 The Awareness Center really began to organize during the time I was living in Jerusalem, Israel. It was at this time that I realized how little was known in how to deal with cases appropriately in the religious world. When I saw appropriate I am meaning reporting crimes to law enforcement, verses chasing the offender out of town -- or shaming and blaming the victim (or their family members) into silence.
I became aware of the severity of the problem when I started doing outreach with a friend with religious teens who made their way down to Ben Yehuda. Just about every teen I met disclosed stories to me of molestation. Some of the kids were incest survivors others were being abused by neighbors, teachers, rabbis, etc. When I tried to get them help -- there was really nothing out there set up to address the issues. Most of the teens I spoke with came from communities such as Neve Yaakov and Har Nof.
Most of those who work in the field of sexual violence have at least a masters degree. This means 4 years of college, plus two years of graduate school. After they receive their masters degrees they are required to received at least 1000 hours of supervision prior to becoming licensed. Law enforcement officials who work sex crimes also have to undergo vigorous training in this highly specialized field.
Though our rabbis are experts in halacha, they are not experts in criminal matters, especially sex crimes committed against our children. When The Awareness Center first got started, I could not find one rabbi who could explain the difference between sexual assault and sexual harassment. Whenever the topic came up of child molestation in which the perpetrator and the victim were male, they automatically called the sex crime -- "homosexual behavior." Unfortunately, in most insulated communities using the wrong terms to describe a sex crime still occurs. By using incorrect termonology often shames and blames the victim and little is done to stop the assailant, which ends up with the offender creating move victims.
Those who are gay do not commit sex crimes anymore then those are heterosexual. When a male sex offender molests a child who is male -- this is NOT "homosexual behavior". The same is true in cases in which a yeshiva bochur is manipulated or forced into having sexual relations with a rav, or anyone else. These are SEX CRIMES!
I'm sorry you are confusing facts and the attempt to prevent anyone else from being a victim of a sex crimes as being condescending, offensive or insensitive towards your religious values. The bottom line is that our ravs don't have the information, education or training to be making determinations if a sex crime had occurred. Just as I would not go to a rav to determine if I needed open heart surgery, I would not go to a rav to determine if a sex crime had occurred.
My suggestion is that our rabbis send a few students to graduate school, let them volunteer at rape crisis centers, let them study law enforcement and then maybe I and many others would feel differently about them making a determination if a child or adult was molested or raped.
I'm sorry that your experience with the secular world has been to be looked down at. I have never thought of the Torah observant community as being "Primitive" or "unenlightened." I have used the terms "insulated " and "unaware," yet never "primitive" or unenlightened." I have often asked myself, how can someone have information or reach a level of awareness if they have not been education on various issues?
It was until around 1999 - 2001, that sexual abuse began to be discussed in orthodox circles. It wasn't until the case of rabbi Baruch Lanner hit the news media, did the religious world start paying attention.
In 1999 I started transforming my private practice web page into what is know The Awareness Center's site. In 2001 The Awareness Center really began to organize during the time I was living in Jerusalem, Israel. It was at this time that I realized how little was known in how to deal with cases appropriately in the religious world. When I saw appropriate I am meaning reporting crimes to law enforcement, verses chasing the offender out of town -- or shaming and blaming the victim (or their family members) into silence.
I became aware of the severity of the problem when I started doing outreach with a friend with religious teens who made their way down to Ben Yehuda. Just about every teen I met disclosed stories to me of molestation. Some of the kids were incest survivors others were being abused by neighbors, teachers, rabbis, etc. When I tried to get them help -- there was really nothing out there set up to address the issues. Most of the teens I spoke with came from communities such as Neve Yaakov and Har Nof.
Most of those who work in the field of sexual violence have at least a masters degree. This means 4 years of college, plus two years of graduate school. After they receive their masters degrees they are required to received at least 1000 hours of supervision prior to becoming licensed. Law enforcement officials who work sex crimes also have to undergo vigorous training in this highly specialized field.
Though our rabbis are experts in halacha, they are not experts in criminal matters, especially sex crimes committed against our children. When The Awareness Center first got started, I could not find one rabbi who could explain the difference between sexual assault and sexual harassment. Whenever the topic came up of child molestation in which the perpetrator and the victim were male, they automatically called the sex crime -- "homosexual behavior." Unfortunately, in most insulated communities using the wrong terms to describe a sex crime still occurs. By using incorrect termonology often shames and blames the victim and little is done to stop the assailant, which ends up with the offender creating move victims.
Those who are gay do not commit sex crimes anymore then those are heterosexual. When a male sex offender molests a child who is male -- this is NOT "homosexual behavior". The same is true in cases in which a yeshiva bochur is manipulated or forced into having sexual relations with a rav, or anyone else. These are SEX CRIMES!
I'm sorry you are confusing facts and the attempt to prevent anyone else from being a victim of a sex crimes as being condescending, offensive or insensitive towards your religious values. The bottom line is that our ravs don't have the information, education or training to be making determinations if a sex crime had occurred. Just as I would not go to a rav to determine if I needed open heart surgery, I would not go to a rav to determine if a sex crime had occurred.
My suggestion is that our rabbis send a few students to graduate school, let them volunteer at rape crisis centers, let them study law enforcement and then maybe I and many others would feel differently about them making a determination if a child or adult was molested or raped.
Vicki Polin, MA, NCC, LCPC, ATR-BC
Founder/Director - The Awareness Center, Inc.
==========================================================================
Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch's Psak
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